Jack McCullough is the author of “Secrets Of Rockstar CFOs” and President of the CFO Leadership Council. We chatted recently about his experience, and the experience of other CFOs, of working for psychopath CEOs. He came to my attention through this article he wrote for Forbes about psychopaths. You can connect with Jack on Twitter.
This week in the United States, The Boy Scouts of America filed for bankruptcy amid “hundreds, if not thousands, of abuse lawsuits” involving sexual abuse. According to USA Today:
the 100-year-old organization had kept track of suspected and known abusers and failed to consistently report them to police or inform parents or the public of the extent of the problem.
The organization was sitting on “20,000 confidential documents, which became known as the “perversion files.” Those records named more than 1,000 banned volunteers…”
Now what kind of people do you think were in management of the Boy Scouts for all these years? For a century, the Boy Scouts wouldn’t allow homosexual children or leaders into their ranks, and taught that any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is not allowed.
But protecting child rapists was okay.
“On my honor, I will do my best, to do my duty, to God and my country, and to obey the Scout Law, to help other people at all times, to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.” – Scout Oath
I’m not an American, so I never saw the Keep American Beautiful ads in the 1970s. But according to this article in the Chicago Tribune, they launched in 1971, asked Americans to clean up the environment, and featured a crying Native American man.
Except – he wasn’t a Native American. He was Italian-American.
The other fact people didn’t know about at the time was that:
Keep America Beautiful was founded in 1953 by the American Can Co. and the Owens-Illinois Glass Co., who were later joined by the likes of Coca-Cola and the Dixie Cup Co.
The entire campaign was a secret tactic by big corporations to focus the responsibility on cleaning up the environment away from them – and on to the consumer.
Keep America Beautiful practiced a sly form of propaganda. Since the corporations behind the campaign never publicized their involvement, audiences assumed that the group was a disinterested party.
It appears that, at that time in America, consumer goods manufacturers had been promoting “throw-away” containers and these were adding to the litter problem. Several environmental groups were trying to get legislation passed to force manufacturers to instead make their containers reusable – the so-called “bottle bills”. But that would eat into profits. So the “Crying Indian” campaign was hatched in secret to convince the public that litter was their problem, not something the manufacturers should have to worry about.
And the manufacturers pulled out one of their favourite lines:
The Keep America Beautiful leadership lined up against the bottle bills, going so far, in one case, as to label supporters of such legislation as “communists.”
What does this have to do with psychopaths?
It comes down to ethics and values. Many people, if they were running a billion-dollar consumer goods organisation, would feel a sense of civic responsbility to do the right thing. Psychopaths, on the other hand, will go out of their way to manipulate the situation in order to maintain their wealth and power.
“America is perhaps the first psychopath nation: It does not act as if it has considered that other countries have interior lives.”
While I agree with his general sentiment, and his case for America acting lawlessly, I’m not so sure America is very original or stands alone in that regard. Britain at its colonial peak didn’t seem to acknowledge the interior lives of the indigenous people of India, Australia, etc. The French didn’t show much concern for the people of Indochina or Algeria. The current government of Scott Morrison in Australia doesn’t seem to care much about asylum seekers or the environment or anyone except their stakeholders (Conservatives, Christians and Big Coal).
Psychopaths in power will always run roughshod over the lives of others in their quest for power, and it’s always easier to stomp on “the other”. They don’t get to vote, and they don’t get much sympathy from your own people, especially if you successfully present them as a danger (imminent or distant) or as just plain wrong-headed (as in Communists or any nation with a different religion to your own).
The United States is just continuing the great old tradition established by its predecessor colonial powers. Demonize and occupy – if not with boots on the ground, then with gunboat diplomacy. America figured out after WWII that it didn’t need to invade – it could buy its way into occupation, by funding pro-American parties and their campaigns (which is largely what the Marshall Plan was about, plus the wars in South Vietnam, South Korea, etc) or, if that failed, funding disenchanted generals to overthrow the existing regime (eg Iran, Bolivia, Honduras, Panama, Haiti, Indonesia, Chile, etc) or, if that wasn’t an option, just outright funding terrorists (eg Afghanistan, Syria, etc).
If none of the above work, America is also fond of economic warfare, or “sanctions”, as they prefer to call it, which translates as destroying the economy of the country in order to bring pressure on the existing regime. A few years of that and you can point at the poor economic circumstances of the target country and blame their ineffective and corrupt government – and most Americans will believe you.
To my mind, the common thread is psychopaths in power. By nature, they don’t care about others, foreigners or locals, but it’s easier to beat up on people who live a long way from you.
We need to remove the psychopaths from power, or, at the very least, limit their ability to exercise their worst impulses. Only then can we fix the psychopathic cultures our countries have developed.
My inaugural guest is Dr Nathan Brooks PhD from CQUniversity. He’s a forensic psychologist with a background in researching psychopaths. He (and a couple of colleagues) have a new book that came out just after mine, called “Corporate Psychopathy: Investigating Destructive Personalities in the Workplace“. It’s an academic book looking at many of the same issues as mine. It was great to speak to him last week and find that we agreed on everything, from the size and importance of the problem, to the causes and the cures.
(typos may occur)
What would you say the biggest problem facing the human race is today . Climate change, wealth inequality, reality TV, these are all good options. But in my recent book, The Psychopath Epidemic, I try and make the case that actually the biggest problem facing the human race today and the thing that is standing behind creating those other problems that I mentioned are psychopaths. Now most people , when they think of psychopaths today , still think of , I think , serial killers or Third World dictators . And that’s mostly thanks to Hollywood’s depiction of psychopaths over the last 30 or 40 years , when in fact your average psychopath is more likely to be the movie studio producer or the director off those films , not the serial killers . They’re the ones that we need to be worried about in my book . I argue that psychopaths are in positions off power in all of our large and influential organisations , not just business organisations but political , religious , military , law enforcement , justice system , the media , education , etc . And that if we could remove psychopaths from positions of power in these organisations , we would probably be able to solve a lot of the world’s problems much faster much easier than we can with them getting in the way . So this new podcast , My Name is Cameron Reilly , by the way . Hi . If you’ve never listened to my podcast before , Thanks for joining me . I’m going to be talking with other people about psychopaths and the problems that they face and what we could do about it . Very pleased that my first guess is fellow Aussie fellow Queenslander Dr Nathan Brooks , PhD forensic psychologist . He and a couple of his colleagues have , in fact , also just come out with a book on psychopaths , and Nathan joined me recently to talk about his work and his views on the problem posed by psychopaths in the workplace with you . Nathan , thanks for coming on on DH , chanting to me . I’m excited that you’ve agreed to be my first guest . Tell the audience a little bit about yourself . Where you where you’re based is a good starting point . Thank you , Cameron . What’s great , Teo be involved and talking about such an important topic ? So I’m based currently at Central Queensland University . I’ve recently relocated up to towns , were some working in our forensic psychology programme up here , which is which is a new programme and my background for for many years prior to that has been working in both the public and the private sector as a forensic psychologist , particularly with high risk offenders , violent offenders , sexual offenders and also , of course , the subject for today psychopathic individuals . Can you explain for those of us who like everything that we know about forensics comes from ? See what a forensic psychologist actually does ? Yes , what’s very different ? TCs I sew and still looking at the scientific leftovers in terms of things like DNA , etcetera . That’s not the area off focus for forensic psychology . So we’re really looking at the role of psychology in crime . So things such as the offenders motivations the reasons that they acted in specific ways , why they may have chosen a certain victim or a certain method or process off offending . And it’s a really trying to understand the the interplay and that the number of psychological factors that drive offending behaviour , and also how that results in that expression of that offending wow and your work in the past , you said , has led you Teo , do some study on psychopaths and I believe you and a couple of colleagues have a book coming out on psychopaths . Thiss month . Is that right ? Yes , yes , it was just released a couple of days ago , actually , thank you . So it’s really around . It’s more of a critical review from probably in some ways , that academic perspective off . Where are we at with corporate psychopathy ? So what do we know ? And what ? Maybe do we require further investigation around ? But But really , we’ve gotten to a point now that we can have quite a strong argument to say that that it is a thing and that , you know , we do see corporate psychopaths or successful psychopath . So the book really is that academic perspective on trying Teo create the idea and trying to get the message out there that this this is a valid area on . We really start to get this science now to support that . And so the book , the book title is corporate psychopathy investigating destructive personalities in the workplace . Fantastic . I’m really I was really excited when I heard that you were coming out with a book that was an academic book is mine is most definitely not an academic book , although , you know , I read a cz much of the academic literature as I could get my hands on in research for the book . But mine is very much a book designed for a popular audience . But it was great to know that you were coming out with yours quickly on the heels of mind . So if anyone complains that my book about my lack of academic credentials , I can just say Go read Nathan’s book , That’s great s so explain to me if you can sort of the main ideas off your book well , part of it is doing it . It initially begins by a quite an extensive overview off the literature on psychopathy , and I mean , there are some people out there that still debate the idea of psychopathy , but from my perspective and I think many others in the field , it’s certainly an established construct . And there is a body of evidence around so Carpathian the criminal context , and we’re now starting to see emerging evidence in relation to some of these individuals that may be about to reside in the community and then some that may even be able to be successful . So that’s where we initially begin is looking at where we currently at and then moving Mohr into exploring , for example , differences between criminal psychopaths and non criminal psychopaths . Way also propose a model , because at the moment we tend to have some issues around . We view psych , copper , a CZ essentially being one entity or everyone that his psychopathic is essentially the same , which is problematic for a number of reasons . So within the book of proposed , the importance of really having a classifications criterias . So how do we narrow down what type of psychopathic individual we’re dealing with ? And then we also look at processes off assessment within the corporate or the business setting on DH . There’s a few different assessment modalities out there . We have developed what we what . We’ve turned the corporate personality inventory , which is it’s a twofold measure . So it’s a self report measure , so that’s filled in by the individual . And then also , we have 1/3 party version of that . So that’s someone writing the individual on DH . There’s another measure that’s quite it’s going quite a lot attraction , and that is through . Robert Hairs will work , and that’s the B scan , and that’s another measure that’s currently under development at the moment and then lastly , we finished the book off by looking at What do we do about the problem ? And that’s really the essential question in all of this , and part of that answer is the recruitment stage and then the second part is the management stage . That’s fantastic , because these are a lot of the issues , you know . I guess the vast majority of my book is talking about why I think psychopaths impositions ofthe management inside of all sorts of organisations , not just business but political organisations , religious organisations , the military , law enforcement , the justice system , the media , etcetera is a problem for society and looking at examples off how I think that Khun be identified and how manifests not just in terms of individual behaviour but in terms of cultural behaviour inside of these organisations , a cz well , when you have a sufficient tipping point of psychopaths in the management , I think it can then become embedded into the culture of an organisation and I go through example of that . But the last chapter’s about what do we do about it and , you know , in the media interviews I’ve been doing in the last couple of weeks , since my book came out . When they often ask me , What’s the number one thing we can do ? I say that , you know , I want to see testing done . Mandatory testing done particularly of individuals in management across of these organisations , some sort of clinical testing on using Bob has PCL R or whatever tools are available to us to determine who the psychopaths are in the management ranks because I think it’s it’s important that we at least know what we’re dealing with here . What can you tell me about the beasts can ? What’s the beasts can ? I haven’t heard of that before , so that’s Robert hairs measure that he’s developed along with . I’m not going to remember all the author names , but one of the other ones is poor Babiak . Also , he’s been heavily involved in the development of that , and here in Babiak had that earlier study back in about 2010 which was one of the first on corporate psychopathy but that the measure has my understanding developed from that early study and it’s it’s very similar in terms ofthe being a self report measure but also it does have 1/3 party component as well . So it’s currently in the process a little bit like that . The tool that we’ve developed off being established , developing that Norman had died or to know that it is reliable , it is valid and the findings that we get back are actually telling us what they should be telling us . So let’s let’s talk about how much of ah problem psychopathy inside of organisations is Do you ? Do you have any data ? Teo Talk that Khun suggest numbers the extent off the problem ? Yes , absolutely So I think one of the first challenges is we need to think about the sample that we’re looking at . So who are we testing ? And one of the reasons I think there’s variations , for example , in prevalence rates is because it varies based on the popular population that you’re testing . So that early study that the Robert Hare deed in 2010 with poor Babiak that found around about 4% off the CEOs or that business sample that they examined met the PCL R or that psychopathy threshold to be considered as being psychopathic . We’ve also done some research in the supply chain management professionals , and we use a different measure for that . We use the psychopathic personality inventory , and we found quite a high level of psychopathic trades within that sample . So approximately 2021% of the sample were scoring above the clinical cut off . So that doesn’t necessarily mean that they are psychopaths or psychopaths , purse or psychopathic per se . But it means that they’ve got a clinical level of psychopathy and no doubt among a proportion of them . They would absolutely be be psychopaths or psychopathic . And what do you think ? The consequences are both to the organisation and to society more broadly off , having psychopaths in the management ranks ? Well , I’ve never had much to misconception . It’s never positive It tends to be , You know , an argument out there that maybe we should be hiring these types of individuals because they can make the tough decisions . And really , the counter argument to that is that if you’re wanting long term prosperity or success for your business , that will never happen . If you were looking for maybe someone that can be a bit of a hired gun and come in and do a clean out , then maybe Maybe a psychopathic individual might be the right person . Short term but long term . It’s goingto have a number of costs for the organisation and I think first of all we look at the cost of employee turnover , things such as bullying and stress that arise within an organisation , the reputation off the business or the organisation . And then there’s also the other side of things which could be fraudulent behaviour or even under the outright decline ofthe organisation . And probably Enron is a very good example of that . There was a number of individuals in there which there’s been some opinion potentially , they were psychopathic and they outcome that happened for Enron was quite quite devastating , really . It was a company that was very success . It’s for when it went into absolute decline . It’s funny . I’ve got an entire chapter on Enron in my book . I agree with you . Yeah , there’s some great storeys that came out of there . Just the sheer arrogance off a lot of their quite public arrogance of their senior executives from for many , many years , eyes quite astounding when you you’ve read some of the quotes . Yeah , and what about outside of businesses ? Your book , mostly looking at corporations ? Or do you also look ATT ? Some other fields like politics and religion ? No . So we mainly were made to look at it in terms of that , that workplace setting there’s there’s an element off overlap with criminal psychology because it’s very hard . Teo , very hard . Ever talk about So Carpathia without first looking at what we know in terms of the criminal side of things , but it’s more tailored at the workplace , but and that’s the aim of doing that was because it provides a bit of a central focus to begin from . And I think once we can get that area established and it really allows allows others to start stepping out and looking at some of the professions that maybe we don’t always get to , such as areas such as religion , even even in sport , for example . So it’s probably been the central starting point , but I think from the conversations around , corporate psychopathy will definitely start looking into other areas . The Connexion for May with organisational psychopaths , happened when I’d already been working on my book for a couple of years trying to work out . Why is the world so fucked up . And why don’t I continually see in the news people in positions of power and leadership , just doing horrible things that no normal person would ever be able to live with themselves or sleep at night if they were doing these things over and over and in reading up on reading some of the psychopathy literature sort of made the Connexion that these sorts of behaviours exactly map to what comes naturally to asylum . Can you talk a little bit about why you think psychopaths do well inside of businesses ? Absolutely it part of it that they’re drawn to you psychopaths . They like to dominate others . And the court operation structure , for example , offers offers a lot of power . And that hierarchical nature as well of organisations also tends to allow psychopathic individuals a level of protection . They’re they’re able Teo hide behind that hierarchy but also manipulate that hierarchy to their advantage . So so has has functional purposes in that respect , but also is well . There’s many individuals within an organisation , and we have rules and policies , and we often finds what psychopathic individuals are able to use those rules and policies to their advantage . So most people tend Teo be guided by the by rules policies that that’s the boundaries of where behaviour may stop or start . But for psychopathic individuals , that’s really around . Okay , well , these are the weaknesses or the vulnerabilities , or this is something that I can actually leverage and exploiting used to my body . So I can I can use , for example , legislation around bullying tio my advantage because I’ll look for patterns in behaviour and start to collect information and use that against the person . So there’s a level there where they can be very , very manipulative but very calculated , and how they go about , in essence , undermining and destroying colleagues , or also manages that they’re up in the position that they’re actually seeking . I mentioned to you affair that I worked at Microsoft for a long time , and , you know , I had a least one manager there who at the time , and afterwards I just rode off a CZ an assault . It was only when I started working on this book that I realised he was a classic psychopath . Very , very charming . Teo Teo . Well , whenever he wanted to be extremely , extremely charming , sort of funny , bit like wreckage of a CZ in the office like just everyone’s everyone’s sort of friend can I make ? But behind the scenes , doing horrible stuff , lying , manipulating , telling one person , one thing and the colleague the complete opposite thing . And and , yeah , it was only when I started realising that these air psychopathic traits that I made the Connexion on . But it’s been funny in the process of writing the book and releasing and talking about it when I explain to people the behavioural traits of a psychopath and explain that it’s not , we’re not just talking about serial killers . What a white collar . What I call in my book , a garden variety psychopath . Looks like everyone . Almost everyone tow a fault , says Oh yeah , I’ve worked with one of those . Everyone has a storey about places they’ve worked with . They they’ve had a boss or a colleague who fit this bill . So I think it’s far more prevalent than maybe we think absolutely . And I I mean , even if we worked off Robert Hairs findings , which roughly 4% of CEOs , for example could be psychopathic , that’s that’s still on enormous amount , even if we were being conservatives . So the implications as well off . Not first of all , not knowing that are not detecting that and having business is run by that type of individual e mean they’re enormous and we sit back and look at the chaos that’s going on around , you know , in the in current sort of leadership circles . And really psychopaths thrive in that chaos and a TTE the moment it seems as though particularly across many , many areas , with whether it’s with that , their world leaders or even back here at home , that there’s a lot of chaos going on . And even with rise of social media , the ability Tau convey , for example , false information or even the power of owning the information that has shared its it’s a fascinating time from that time for for chaos to be really arising . And from that perspective , it sze quite intriguing . Teo be observing what’s happening , and sometimes it feels as though you’re we’re all just Spectators to the chaos that is going on . Yeah , there’s chaos , and I’ve been making the argument that I think dealing with psychopaths and positions of wealth and power is the number one problem that we need to face globally today because all of the other problems that we have dealing with climate change , dealing with wealth inequality , dealing with terrorism , dealing with thiss whole raft of issues that get talked about all the time in the media . At the end of the day , I think we could We could probably solve all of those quite quickly if we could get the psychopaths out of power . I think it’s the psychopaths that are leading us into a LL of these situations without without that sense of empathy for their fellow human beings trying to do the right thing . At the end of the day , I believe that most people , whether it doesn’t matter what your politics are , whether you’re left or right or in the centre at the end of the day , most of us are good people . We want the same things . We don’t want other people to be harmed . We may argue over the ways to get there , but at the end of the day , we all want the same thing Psychopaths don’t don’t do . They don’t really have the ability to care about what happens to other people . They only think about themselves . It’s all me , absolutely me , me , me and It’s bad . How is this person useful for me ? And that’s the idea , really around that psychopathic people tend to use people’s objects that are there to serve a purpose . And then when that purposes bean fulfilled or they’re no longer useful , then it’s really discarding them and moving on . And I think you definitely make a good a good point in terms ofthe absolutely decisions could be made in some respects , rather simply . But it’s and I go back t the idea of the chaos . It’s that smoke and mirrors and when you’re we’ll get very much caught up in the smoke and mirrors and when you can actually stop and see , see the act for what that is and what’s going on behind behind the surface . Yes , it’s sometimes is quite frightening . But it’s also , in many respects , puzzling why simple decisions can’t be made . And I think the the idea of creating the smoke and mirrors is often because it is . It’s a form of destruction , and it’s also allows time tio potentially make other deals or engage in other behaviours that are self self fulfilling and self promoting for that individual . Yeah , I would add that not only two psychopaths use individuals to teo extract the maximum amount of personal benefit . They also use situations , scenarios . We talked about their ability to use rules and laws to their advantage earlier . I think it’s the same with scenarios like global tensions . They find the way to extract the most out of that situation for their own benefit . Let me ask you about Azaz a professional . How well do you think psychopathy is understood in the general public ? Generally , not that well way tend to base that on the Hollywood perception of what we see on TV . And you know , the classic one is Hannibal Lecter or the serial killer , but really the most psychopaths in not necessarily like that . We certainly have a handful that are , but many are in many respects , un remarkable . They could be the neighbour next door , that there could be the family friend , and they could also , for example , has many people have found over the years that could also be a husband or wife or your husband or one . So it isn’t very well understood , and that tends to be the the idea that they will be violent and that they’ll be quite unstable as well in many respects , or the other option we see is that that will be this charming person , and it tends Teo tend to connect The idea , for example , maybe of narcissism is being psychopathic , but really , generally there’s not a strong understanding , and that’s also understandable because it’s a very complex area . Yeah , on Dove course , a Sze Yu said earlier , there’s still debate around the terminology . Obviously , the M five sort of bumbles up psychopathy and sociopathy and a number of other disorders in the anti social personality disorder . I use the term Sykov pithy just because I think it’s you know it’s Tze something that we use in common parlance , and it’s easier to communicate . I’ve had a lot of people ask me the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath . My answer is usually , look , it’s a little bit muddy , and I’ve read lots of different things in the clinical literature about They’re the same . They’re different , they don’t exist . Do you have Ah , do you have a position on the differences ? America tends to favour sociopathy or sociopaths , but particularly in Australia and also probably the UK , we tend to go with psychopathy . The main difference , from my point of view , is just the argument of what , What is the cause ? Ality , or what’s caused the condition . So psychopathy with Jin generally would say it’s a combination of genetics and also environmental contributions . Thie idea of sociopathy or associate someone being a sociopath is that it’s a result of the environment or upbringing factors or social influences that have caused that . So really probably being a little bit biassed . But I think psychopathy is probably the Mohr appropriate way to look at that , and we don’t really have absolute certainty around what is the sole contributing course . I think that probably is an argument that it is a combination of both genetics and environmental factors . I don’t think we could say that it’s solely a result off the person’s upbringing or social influences . Well , that’s good . Yeah , I mean , my my for the last few years , my rough way of delineating that to a psychopaths of born and sociopaths a maid . But I know it’s usually everything’s a lot more complex than that . It’s a good way of looking at it , and I mean , just just going back . Teo , the Iight year of environmental influences . One of one of the arguments is often the idea of trauma and the contribution of trauma to the development of psychopathic personality . But there’s been some interesting research around the , for example , violent , psychopathic individuals , and there tends to be a relationship with moderate levels of psychopathy and trauma . But as you get to that upper echelons or the higher levels off psychology , that relationship seems Teo basically disappear or really reducing strength . So the high level of psychopathy there’s not necessarily that support for trauma actually being a contributing factor . When you say the higher levels , you mean in terms of , ah ranking , yes . Oh , it we work , for example , on the PCL R . So on Robert hairs measure , which it ranges from 0 to 40 . So as you get around about that 30 yawn woods even higher , maybe 30 for 35 36 the higher up that scale that you go . The researchers found that there’s less likely to be an association between the history of trauma and that high level of psychopathy scores . So , apart from having people sit tests , what do you think we should do about corporate psychopaths ? I think the first the first part has to be the recruitment stage and that that all actually is the testing component . But the other side of it is e guess . If that fails , then what do we do once the individual is in the organisation and I mean the first logical thing would be extending the probationary period there , the important solve , obviously performance reviews . We would argue myself and my colleagues have suggested that also so some form off behavioural type off assessment , once they are within the organisation and urine that probation period so that may , for example , be getting a appear are at the same level and also a manager to rate the person’s performance . So trying to really get in some in some ways different levels of rating . So how are they with their colleagues ? But how are they also from a performance level , and then we Then we get a little bit more complex in terms ofthe what are the actual management strategies . Once we’ve actually identified that there’s potentially Cem problematic personality traits at play and that that has a Siri’s of implications . First , for how do we manage the immediate concern and that depends on what the immediate concern is . There’s been some suggestion that maybe psychopaths could be successful if they are essentially removed from having contact with others and put on a special reward based programme where that allows them to feel special . And it gives them away at a channel and focus that instrumental motivation . And they are rewarded for basically meeting master goals . But they have limited interaction with other employees . Thie other option is really getting into that performance management space , which which is complex because then we’re looking at okay , how can that be set up so essentially that may allow the person to be exited from the business . But if we’re talking , if the psychopath in question is , the CEO of unorganised ation could be very hard to have their work peer reviewed unless it’s the chair person or something . Yes , absolutely . And so I guess that depending on the arrangement of the company , that could be there’s a board of directors so raising concerns up to up to that level we’ve also got , and just hoping that they’re not all psychopaths . Yes , absolutely . I guess there’s the option off whistle blowing . But unfortunately , the other advice Is that coming back ? It’s coming back to What are you as an individual wanting out off your role and is staying within the organisation Actually providing you that e . I think it really has to come back to looking at your own personal values because a TTE the basic level of Cyclone are you talking about ? It’s the psychopath making this decision , or people working with the psychopath thie individual right within the organisation . So we’ve got a psychopathic CEO and you’re having a you know , an incredibly hard time . You’ve got to come back to what can you actually control in that situation ? And ultimately , your your ability to influence the psychopath , for example , is very , very limited . And I think unfortunately , the only thing you can control is your decisions and your choices . And it may mean that you yourself need to leave the organisation and that za tough reality . But that’s also something that really is , ah , legitimate concern for people and something that they need to consider . Yeah , I talk a lot about that in my book , a cz well , the what are your choices If you think you’re working for an organisation with psychopathic management . You can try and change it from within . You can leave , you can become a whistleblower . And then I look at all of the some examples of people that have done all of these things . They none of the men dwell . Unfortunately , usually I think that you’re one of the things I recommend is I want to see organisations have some sort . If if there is a psychopath identified in senior management and they’re going to remain , you need some sort off a group of people that have also been tested and found not to be high on the psychopathic checklist to review certain decisions that the psychopath is making with regards to the business . And they need to be approved by a board of confirmed a non psychopaths to make sure that none of these decisions that the psychopath is making this a Tew CEO are dangerous to people inside or outside of the organisation . E . I think I was just going to add around , you know , there’s a there’s a huge conversation here around the testing in the recruitment stage , and ultimately it’s not letting the person through the door and that’s it . I think if we are Teo , create real change . It’s making sure or that the foundation is set up correctly from the beginning , so that that’s where that testing that recruitment stage is essential . And probably what I would add there is that we have it wrong . At the moment we’re so focused on , does the person have the skills to work history and we play such limited , limited or little value on character ? And we really need to flip that around . We need to be looking at character as the first priority , and then here they have the right character . Then do they have the right skills and the right work history ? Yeah , quite often we’re looking for people that are a cultural fit for the organisation . But if the culture of psychopathic , then you’re just bringing in more psychopaths . The question I wanted to ask you is What I get a lot is when I talk about testing psychopaths , getting them , having them sit tests , people will often say , Well , thou lie . They’re not going to reveal that there a psychopath . I’ll just lie on the test . If they know what you’re testing for , what your thoughts on that it’s an interesting argument because there’s certainly grounds for that . And if you’ve got a very intelligent and well versed psychopathic individual , there’s there’s an absolute risk that that will happen . So self report measures have utility but basing decisions solely on those we would need to be very cautious about that . So this test , I think testing should never be just one measure . So there would need to be a Siri’s of measures , a Siri’s of different approaches to how you would go about testing this , and part of that might be a self report measure . But I would also suggest things such as integrity , testing , honestly testing , moral reasoning , looking at problem solving and the ability to apply ethical problem solving skills . So there’s ways off really trying to triangulate that approach . The other side of that , as well as making sure that problem proper of used it done of the person before they actually enter the company’s so often a referee cheques a pretty average at best . So it tends to be we might take one referee cheque or to referee cheques . There’s also been some suggestions around the importance off getting a referee cheque from a manager , a referee cheque from a former colleague and maybe even a referee cheque from someone that work underneath that person . So again , covering multiple perspectives and probably the the other thing I’d also add , in addition to the testing side of things , is the interview and the interview is just as crucial as the testing that is done . So while we can have test instruments and Self Report is okay , as long as we’re not solely relying on that , the interview needs to be structured . That the correct way ? Yeah . I mean , we need to have higher recognition of the issue of corporate psychopaths so it can be built into the interview in the screening process . It’s not going to help us deal with people that are already on the inside and levels of senior management , though . And one of the one of the responses I’ve had for people is in terms of psychopaths and self reporting or sitting tests is , I wonder of psychopaths would would even care about trying to hide the fact that they’re psychopaths because my , after reading all of the literature on it on DH , having known and worked for a bunch of them , I get the sense that they don’t care what we think of them . They don’t that they think of themselves as winners . And it is a Donald Trump’s you know , a classic example of If you like me and agree with me you were winners and if you don’t , you’re just a loser . So it doesn’t matter , and I don’t I don’t think so . I mean , a ll . The literature says that their ability to cog Nate risk is quite low because I’m talking about the ones that actually have not burned out along the way . I say , I think a lot of psychopaths , you know , the literature talks about 1% or 2% off the population being psychopaths . And as I point out in the beginning , in my book , that’s a couple 100,000 people in Australia . Adults in Australia , a couple of 1,000,000 adults in the United States , 60 million adults worldwide , high on the psychopath list . But I’m sure a lot of those burn out along the way . They don’t have the intelligence , they don’t have the training , the experience to make it into the senior ranks of organisation . So , as you said , the abuse of husband or wife that they may have a low ranking job somewhere . But for the ones that have managed to play the game well enough to make it into the ranks of the successful that wealthy , they’re powerful . I don’t think they give a shit what any of us think about them . They believe inherently , and their experiences taught them that they will win . At the end of the day , it doesn’t matter what you bring . They will win because there Maur cunning . They’re more bloodthirsty . They’re willing to do what you’re not willing to do . They think they’re smarter . They think they’re superior , and so they don’t really care . If we do say they’re psychopaths , I think their response I expect the response would be , well , so what ? I’m a winner , but what’s your take on my , you know , side of the curb analysis ? There’s absolutely there’s no doubt that there’s that bold and brazen nature associated with psych op , earthy , and I think for a certain percentage we could definitely say that they don’t care and there’s that arrogance in terms ofthe completing , for example , an assessment tool and thinking that already they are going to come out with fantastic results and that the findings really won’t matter anyway . But the other side of it is well on the tends to be some research around that supports this is that psychopaths can also be able to modify their behaviour depending on the stakes . And this really comes back to the instrumental nature . So we tend to find that , yes , they don’t care . If you make the stakes important enough , then they do care and they will curtail their behaviour . Yeah , I can totally see that if they believe the stakes are high enough , if it if it’s going to . If they really do think it’s going to get in the way of their personal success , then they will . I mean , they’re also master manipulators , so they will manipulate the situation and their answers , etcetera , to to suit if they really believe the stakes are high . But I also think , you know , outside of the really being on the line , they’ll just tell you , Yeah , I don’t give a shit what you think . Get out of my get out of my face on DH , that’s where , particularly when you start having interpersonal interactions with them that will emerge absolutely . Maybe in the steaks off . You know , Theo going for Ah ah , high position . That may be enough for them to change that , responding to present the image that they think that they need to present . And I guess I would bring that back , for example , for a psychopath going for parole , they could be incredibly effective at manipulating that process and present the image that they need to present there again because the stakes are home I . But yes , once they’re in that organisation that they will be blunt and brutal and ruthless and cruel , particularly if the people that they’re doing that to our of little value to them . Yeah , I was just pulled up the Enron chapter in my book . I called it survival of the nastiest and just some of the some of the quotes from you before their executives just outstanding . There’s the one here where ah Skilling , Ted Skilling know Jeffrey Skilling , who was the CEO for a while there . Just when , when one Wall Street analyst question him on one of their calls about how they could keep their stock value so high civil , thank you very much . We appreciate that asshole on on a call with Wall Street analysts like just the extreme arrogance is astounding . Anyone ? It was the wild , wild West , Really . It wasn’t in many ways , and they did what they like , and they got away with it for quite a while , God for a long time and with the support off a lot of major financial institutions , a lot of you know , the media that covers Wall Street . Wall Street analysts . No one really got in their way . In fact , they were lauded as being rock stars and superheroes . And , you know , they were on the front covers of business magazines constantly until it all came falling down . Absolutely . And there’s been obviously other examples with G F . C in 2000 2008 and the things that were going on there and investment banking . And , of course , the other one that’s often thrown around when we talk about corporate psychopathy is Bernie Madoff and the the Ponzi scheme that he was running and where the matter ofthe wars psychopathic , I think , is another conversation . But he definitely had some off those traits , and I’m not sure he has been assessed as that . But the boldness that went on there , And the cruelty and ruthlessness in that Ponzi scheme in was was quite remarkable . And he’s often heralded as the as the poster boy off corporate psychopathy really didn’t get it . I didn’t get into a matter ofthe Storey in my book , but yeah , there’s plenty . And of course I mean the Catholic Church , and it’s why mention religion . I mean , there’s plenty of plenty of examples in the annals of religious leadership , past and present . But the Catholic Church and the cover ups the systematic cover ups of child abuse over many , many decades that will become very aware ofthe through commissions and investigations and reporting over the last few years again to May indicates high levels off psychopaths inside them . The leadership ranks of the church . That’s quite it’s quite fascinating that side of things with the Catholic Church because it’s has been examined , but it also hasn’t been examined . So from a systematic level , there’s been some investigation around why that went on Interestingly , though not a personality level , which I think is a very important conversation , And maybe when we’re thinking about a cable , how will that change moving forward ? There’s a strong argument that there needs to be some form of testing or screening going on . What ? What What protocols are in place to contain control for this moving forward ? Yeah , for all organisations . I mean , that’s basically the argument of my book is , you know , I’ve been saying Teo , I’ve been on some extreme right wing radio stations for some reason . The radio shows in the US that have shown the most interest in talking to me about my book of extreme right wing shows . And when they want to get into a political discussion about it , I say , Look , my take on it is psychopaths are everywhere there on the left , there , on the right there , in every organisation they will anywhere that they , Khun , see an opportunity for personal wealth and power and gratification . They will . They will try to rise to the top off it and probably do quite well because of all of the things we mentioned before . Their ability to charm their ability to manipulate their ability to be ruthless . You know , as I often say , like all of us could do terrible things . We can all be selfish . We can all lie , cheat , steal , betray confidences . All humans will do that . But most of us , when we do that , we feel bad about it and we try not to do it in the future . We’re under certain circumstances . We will all do those things . Teo for a variety of reasons . But when psychopaths do those things , they don’t have a bad night’s sleep . They , in fact , probably have the best night’s sleep that they’ve had that month . They get a bad feeling like a complete winner and a legend because they did that S o I think they might take Is there in all organisation that probably , quite probably within all organisations doesn’t matter what the flavour is . They don’t really have any ideology is my take on it . You know , if you talk about left or right in politics , then they’re only ideology . As you said before , it is me . That’s their ideology . If they need Teo look like a Democrat , they look like a Democrat . If they need to look like a Republican look like a Republican now , they’ll do whatever they think they need to do in order to succeed . It’s that idea . The chameleon in many respects , isn’t it ? Yeah , they’re the ultimate chameleon . They can be , you know , from what I’ve read at various stages when they’re quite young and I assume sort of Lynn there from age sort of seven through 2 17 or 20 when they realise that they’re different from other people , in that they don’t have the same sort of empathy and other sort of emotions that are tied in with empathy , that the ones that will go on to succeed , learn , toe , mimic and fake that and learn how to show people what they want to see . And so they become very adept at that . I mean , we all do that toe a point , obviously , but they are very , very adept at it . Yes , it’s that that line by I think it was John John’s and Keys back in the day where they said psychopaths know the words , but not the music . And they are . They can take that chameleon approach . They can mimic emotions and they commit behaviour , and they quite effective at doing that . It takes a very astute person to be able to see essentially a CZ . Harvey is what Hervey quickly put it behind that mask , and they do They convey that mask of sanity . But when you’re able to step back and look at all those little actions put together , that’s when that character or that true character , really does emerge . Nathan Thanks very much for taking the time Tio chat and Congratulations on the book . Thank you , Cameron and well done with your bookers . Wellit’s exciting and it’s great Teo Great to be building the message . E . Well , I hope you enjoyed that chat with Nathan Brooks as much as I did . You could get a copy off his book that he wrote , along with Katarina Fritz On and Simon Crume . Corporate psychopathy Investigating destructive personalities in the workplace Online Look it up Power grave dot coms . Good place to start but Google that you’ll find it and I’ll be back soon . Not sure how often I’m going to put out these episodes . Probably a couple of months . Got an interview coming up soon with gentlemen who runs an organisation for chief financial officers in the US talking about his experience with corporate psychopath , And I think I’ll also throw appear in interview that I did when I was interviewed on American radio recently talking about the books . I’ll throw that up a cz well , and I’ll be just interviewing experts on psychopaths will try and solve this problem together . So thanks for checking out the podcast You want to know more about May go teo Cameron Reilly dot com and shoot me an email that Cameron Reilly at gmail dot com If you have some storeys about psychopaths that you’d like to share , even in private or on the show , I’d love to hear your storeys and cheque out the book psychopath Epidemic hashtag stop psychopaths .